Kellee Terrell: Jennifer, earlier you made some really great points about younger women sleeping with older men, and the power dynamic that happens: not being able to negotiate condom use; self-esteem and media messages. Can we talk a little bit more about that?
Jennifer Irwin: Issues around power and control, whether it's with our clients who are HIV negative or positive, I think are some of the biggest issues that the bulk of our young girls face. Whether they're conscious of it fully or not, their behaviors definitely point to a huge lack of self-esteem and a lot of powerlessness in relationships that they're currently in. And that's even if they are with young guys who are around their age, although the bulk of our girls are with men that are considerably older, sometimes double their age.
I think one of the biggest ways that we see the negative impact of this is with our HIV-positive girls and disclosure of their status. A large portion of our girls do not disclose their HIV status to their partners, for several reasons. I think one of the biggest ones is the fear of rejection by their partner. There's concern around being rejected by their partner. A lot of our girls have faced a lot of trauma and violence in their history and their past; everything from sexual assault, molestation to rape. So on one hand, there's an inherent worry about violence.
I also think that a lot of these young girls spend a lot of energy on what they feel is trying to find a good man, or a good guy, to be with, and the concern that there are not a lot of good men out there for them. So when they've got one, they need to do whatever it takes to protect that. And so I think a big piece of that is the feeling that they're scared, or don't want to disclose their status.
Now tie mental health issues into it. When we talk about what's affecting these young women, a large bulk of the girls in our program suffer from major depression and post-traumatic stress syndrome due to the trauma of their past.
In terms of condom use, I think some of our girls think that if they don't wear a condom then it will give their boyfriend the impression that they've got nothing, that they don't have any diseases, that they're "clean." They are worried that if they ask their boyfriend to use a condom, suspicions will come into his mind that she's got something.
It's that really kind of scary, warped way of viewing it. It's not him saying, "Oh, I want to protect you. I want to protect myself." It's the absolute opposite. It's: "Why do you need to wear a condom? Is something wrong? I thought you were clean. You told me you were clean."
There's almost this kind of rite of passage of girls: By not using condoms, they are proving to the men that they're with that they don't have anything. Because they're scared that by using a condom, a red flag will be triggered, and they are going to be asked a lot of questions they don't want to have to answer, particularly our positive girls.
Claire Simon: As I listen to Jen talking, I'm like, "OK; these are some of the same issues that grown women face." Is it learned behavior? Is there a manual that we got that got input in our brain at birth, to say that this is how we're supposed to behave, and these are the issues? And how much of it is media sensation around black women, or women of color, not finding partners or not having adequate partners?
We haven't addressed this heterosexual epidemic in any way, other than the fact that we're telling girls to use a condom; negotiate condom use. And we're not talking about sexuality. We're not talking about power dynamics.
Again, this is about the social factors that we talk about, that are fueling the epidemic. Because if we have young women who feel like: Once I enter a relationship with a guy, I have no power. And I have to relinquish whatever power I have because I don't want to lose him --
Kellee Terrell: And you don't want to lose him because everyone keeps telling you, "You have got a good man. What are you doing? Why can't you keep a man?" It's a very Steve Harvey-esque mentality.
Claire Simon: Yes, it is.
Jennifer Irwin: A lot of our girls are very economically dependent on these older men.
Tracie Gardner: Right.
Jennifer Irwin: These older men are the ones who buy them the clothes they need, buy the cute purse, pay for them to get their nails done and pay for them to get their hair done. They cannot get that from anywhere else. They can't get that kind of money at home; it doesn't exist. They're young. They may not have their own job and so it's very attractive when you have some guy handing you all this stuff. And essentially the payback is, you're having sex with him.
Tracie Gardner: Right.
Jennifer Irwin: And so they're willing to give that up to get what they can get absolutely nowhere else.
Tracie Gardner: So let's look at what is power, really? We talk about power in terms of girls and women being able to negotiate safer sex, being able to negotiate condom use. That means you have to negotiate putting a condom onto somebody else's organ. It's not that you're negotiating condom use for yourself; you have to quote-unquote try to convince somebody to put a sheath onto his penis. And I'm not even going to talk about the female condom.
Kellee Terrell: That's a whole other conversation. [Laughs.]
Tracie Gardner: A whole other discussion. But in terms of the power discussion, what if, in fact, you are powerful, in that you feel like you make the decisions about the man that you're going to sleep with, and whether you're going to use a condom with him? What if you've got the power in deciding? But we know this is not the case for so many of our young women, and yet we've grown up with prevention that presumes and assumes, and that incorporates the idea of giving women power. We're asking -- we're needing -- power over primarily an organ that we don't even have attached to our body.
"AIDS, Inc., does not know what to do with sexually active men who are not exclusively gay." -- Tracie Gardner
The other piece of the discussion, of course, that's always been missing, long been missing, is: AIDS, Inc., does not know what to do with heterosexually identified men.
Kellee Terrell: Which was my next question.
Tracie Gardner: AIDS, Inc., does not know what to do with sexually active men who are not exclusively gay -- let me put it like that. Unless you are exclusively gay, out, or even a little bit kind of halfway what society labels as "down low," AIDS, Inc., doesn't know what to do with black men's sexuality. It just doesn't. We don't have the right studies for it. We don't have the right access for it. We don't have any idea, except prison -- which is my whole other issue -- of where you can have an opportunity to engage men around health literacy, right? Sexuality addiction that plays into factors; sex that happens with men that does not mean, or does not reflect, an orientation. We don't have the places to have those discussions. The good thing about what we're doing with the girls is that we're able to have those venues to have that discussion.
But as long as we're able to access health care, mostly around our reproductive organs, and men don't have a similar place where they even ever have to come into care, unless they're coming into care for prostate cancer -- and that's a sure sign that they've come too late -- we've been doing one-hand clapping for a long time. So it's not even about what works, or what doesn't work; we're still trying to figure it out.
Comment by: Kent Denning
Fri., Jan. 6, 2017 at 4:05 pm UTC
Great forum and a good article for all of us at "AIDS, Inc.". The comments speak well of the internal dialogue that we all have around sexuality and survival.
Comment by: Pastor Concerned
Fri., Jan. 6, 2017 at 1:00 pm UTC
The only way to effectively address this issue is to enter the battlefield that is most effective in enticing people to be sexually active and appealing only to the arousal factor with no emphasis whatsoever placed on safety, risk, or responsibility.
It is entirely impossible to effectively change this dynamic with getting this information out to the males that are largely responsible for the infecting of females.
So, commercials, as well as the interjection of discussion of responsibility and caution should be a requirement television show encouraging the engagement of sexual activity.
The sexual revolution which has experienced unforeseen nuances and liberties in the last few years has had an incredible effect on this phenomenon. Since society has empowered and incorporated into the realm of acceptability, to a large degree, the LGBT lifestyles, emphasis has shifted from the concerns of contracting HIV to the establishment and push for more acceptance and entrenchment into the bedrock of society for LGBT issues.
However, because of the huge part of human interaction that sexual relations occupies, this issue unaddressed has surged due to a lack of emphasis on and focused warnings and consistent public awareness efforts. It's almost as if HIV has been cured, the way the warnings have disappeared from the public forum, which I believe is central to the increased diagnosis that is heartbreaking.
A/A family life is the most fragile as it has been under attack since slavery and every government experiment or change of agenda, like frogs in the ecosystem, A/As are effect, due to a constant quest for betterment which they were so deprived from for generations. This rest lenses has cause a vulnerability, die to a lack of foundational stability that a proper family unit, replete with traditional values instilled from one generation to the next would naturally pass down..
Comment by: Eric
Sun., Dec. 18, 2016 at 7:38 pm UTC
Education and prevention is key. I would imagine that reaching whatever demographic is having sex with this demographic would be important, but that might take some people leaving their comfort zone in a day where we dance around the real root of problems at the expense of those who can do little to protect themselves.
Comment by: roger
Mon., Aug. 22, 2016 at 3:10 pm UTC
I believe that the rise in HIV is contributed the prison system. Where were there a large pop. Of aids. When these guys come on the street the y should be screen more. Tm
Comment by: Robert Russell
(Atlanta Georgia )
Sun., Jun. 26, 2016 at 4:03 am UTC
this is an excellent article
I was intrigued by the article for two reasons 1 I have a 19 year old daughter 2 I worked for an organization that provided free HIV and Hep C testing not to mention that some of our grants where i CDC or HIV testing and prevention grants.
I can see the need for going beyond the traditional walls of schools and health centers to educate people.
the church and the community at Large must participate an education prevention testing and abstinence seminar
Comment by: R. Loggins
Thu., May. 5, 2016 at 2:41 am UTC
Stop! Stop perpetuating this fallacy - uhgg. The higher numbers of AIDS in the AA community can be largely attributed to the fact that AFRICAN immigrants are included in these numbers and African immigrants are 6x more likely to have AIDS than there American counterparts. Also it affects heterosexual Africans at a higher rate - many who are born with it. The African continent ALSO has had the highest rate of legal immigration to the US since the 90's.
These numbers are calculated without country of origin for the black community (although they are broken out in the Hispanic community in many studies) SPECIFICALLY to further the negative narrative and stereotypes of AA's. Teenage black girls are NOT more promiscuous or risk takers than their beer pong, binge drinking heroine addict white counterparts - stop it!
Comment by: william jones
Mon., Apr. 18, 2016 at 8:05 am UTC
I realize the focus here is on health issues related to sexual activity. Another important issue that should be addressed is the financial aspects of child rearing. This cycle of state support to these young mothers really should be put in check. In addition to overcoming this power struggle with these men with no sense of responsibility, these young girls need to be taught o sense of financial responsibility.
Comment by: Erica
Thu., Apr. 7, 2016 at 6:11 am UTC
They are not telling themselves that, doctors are telling them that!
Comment by: Brenda
Thu., May. 3, 2012 at 12:39 am UTC
I really enjoyed reading the whole conversation.I was diognosed 2009. I got it fom my husband, who did many things behind my back. He used heroin, which lead to him sleeping with whomever had what he wanted. Enough anout that.
The day I was told. I was devistated, thought I was gonna die. So, now that I know I'm NOT gonna die. My goal is to bring awarness & prevention to my community.To talk to youths anywhere that I can.My 11 year old talks to her friends & educates them. At least the ones that stick around to listen.I'm so proud of her.
The only support thats in nmy area is the Rainbow communtiy center. & to be honest,I didn't feel welcomed. I'm not a gay man or a gay women. So basicaly there 's nothing for straight people. So I started a small group in Pittsburg & working on getting word out that I'm here to support you & to listen to you. This is my calling. But its going to be a very long road.Baby steps to glory.
I believe people need to see AIDS/HIV signs more often, more commercials ect.
Great job ladies.
Comment by: Christine Makena
Tue., Feb. 8, 2011 at 2:16 am UTC
I like your views and contribution in trying to control the HIV/AIDS pandemic among the youth.Young people should be involved more in healthy activities to occupy their minds so as to keep them away from negative activities.atahis is because at this age they have a lot of energy,so many ideas and they want to experiment hence the need to push them into productive activities.
Comment by: Justified
(Little Rock, AR )
Sun., Feb. 6, 2011 at 2:35 pm UTC
What saddens me is the fact that the African American Community has for so long push things aside they don't know how to face tings head on thinking we always were struggling. Now I say to mu friends we need to talk about it, even if it's not you, if it's someone you know or don't know it affects you this is our community! I had the experience of going to an event held by the AAF in Little Rock, AR...to my dismay their were more Caucasions than African American. They attack this with strength and character. Why do we "African American" Women and Men, look at this as danger? No matter how a person contracted the fact remains getting them to a point where they can access better judgement from that day forward, and access better judgement before it happens. Where does it start and will it ever end. We talk until no more words are spoken and everyone still walks around like it could never happen to them. Aids and Me!
Comment by: Graham
(Little Rock, AR)
Wed., Feb. 2, 2011 at 10:38 am UTC
This was FANTASTIC! My heart breaks for all the young women who only know this type of "love".
The only type of love they really need is to love themselves and protect their bodies and hearts at the same time. If he REALLY loves you, he'll strap up, be faithful and get tested! Nothing is better than a Woman's peace of mind. How does this message get out? How does it become ingrained in their heads? How do you teach people to respect themselves when they learn from their family a completely different set of values?
God bless you Ladies and the work that you do.
Replies to this comment:
Comment by: Real
(Little Rock, AR )
Sun., Feb. 6, 2011 at 2:19 pm UTC
First It starts with knowledge and a solid strong bond within our community inwhich we don't have. The problem is for so long young lady's in our community never knew anything other than we lay we get payed, pleasure became an object of being taken care of. Trust became an object of distrust. I am a single mother and I tell my daughter often take care of you, no one else will and protect yourself at all times, the feeling will be more profound if you insist he wears a condom, because no one will ever disclose what's going on with them. To that I add, no one told me 19 years ago...
Comment by: Reuben K.Harpole,Jr.
Thu., Jan. 27, 2011 at 8:18 pm UTC
No strait anwsers. I had the medical person of our county jails tell me one day "The black community is in deep trouble" I asked why? He said that the men in the jails are have sex in prison and coming out and having sex with their girlfriends anthere wives and giving the HIV. Now that is one way in which this is spreading.
Comment by: Rena Greifinger
Thu., Jan. 27, 2011 at 2:05 am UTC
Thank you so much for initiating this powerful and informative discussion. Your passion really came through in your candid and informed remarks. I was particularly struck by the realization that so little attention/funding is paid to young heterosexual men of color. We work with many of these young men and are always struggling to find funding and mentors for programming geared towards them. If you have any ideas, please share! Thanks so much for all of your incredible work.
Director, One Love Project
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