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Weizman
Unregistered

HIV and ongoing symptoms
      #34965 - 05/31/02 04:07 PM

For all of you who have ongoing symptoms, don't let that fool you into thinking you have HIV. I've read that some of you had negative tests outside the window period, but you think you must have an undetectable strain of something like HIV because of your ongoing symptoms.

I know you're not going to accept this, because you are not thinking clearly right now, but HIV does not cause ongoing symptoms until at least a few years after infection. Maybe you're thinking its an prolonged bout of ARS (the acute illness that happens to some people a few weeks after infection) but ARS is self-limiting. That means it only lasts a week or so and then clears up on its own.

I know your symptoms are real, I'm not saying it's all in your head. But I am saying that it doesn't make sense to take list of ongoing symptoms and conclude that it must be HIV, because that just doesn't match the way HIV presents itself.

Now you can respond, and I have a feeling you'll try to explain that your ongoing symptoms can only be explained by HIV or some other HIV-like virus. You will tell me how real the symptoms are, and that you know your own body. I will wonder if you read or understood this post. All I'm sayng is that the symptoms may be real, but since they are ongoing, it is probably not HIV or any other HIV-like virus. Please think about it, it could save you from many unneccesary visits to clinics, doctors, and psychiatrists. I'm just trying to help. Best Wishes.



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TerryD
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #34968 - 05/31/02 04:33 PM

ARS is a phony theory to get you to test untill you zero convert and then take their poisons!!!



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confused
Unregistered

Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34969 - 05/31/02 04:37 PM

Thanks for your help and what you say makes sense,I want to believe my 6 month test and i do at times.Then these symptoms get the best of me.I just don't understand why theres so many of us that have the same ongoing symptoms after a possible exposer when we were all healthy before this.About stress i wasn't stressed until i got these symptoms so im sure its not stress.Thanks again for your advice and im still trying to believe my tests.



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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34977 - 05/31/02 04:53 PM

at least 50% and as high as 90% of people have symptoms




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Manturd
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #34978 - 05/31/02 04:54 PM

Terry you have your head up your ass symptoms are real like when you have a cold do you not have symptoms?

eat me



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uhohblita
Guru

Reged: 05/02/02
Posts: 273
Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34979 - 05/31/02 04:58 PM

I am starting to believe the HIV tests. But I do think something is wrong. Something with a similar pattern.
You are right, HIV is initially flu-like and then remains dormant (usually) for many years before your body starts to slowly decline its immune ability. There ARE other viruses out there, we KNOW this. If it happens in other countries, why not here? Why are we so convinced we know everything that exists. I am getting more convinced that I dont have HIV, in reading and thinking about the clinical course just as you mentioned. BUT there are other things out there, like I said maybe it affects only .2% of the people who get it, such as HTLV, only it works faster. In time, we will find out. Hopefully our bodies will overcome. My ARS did go away initially, in fact, I hadnt obsessed or barely read about HIV or even taken ONE test until a YEAR later when I was just brought down to my knees. I dont think you have expeienced anything close to us, or you would be writing differently. Maybe if a year or so you will experience the weird things starting to happen again, like I did. I hope not. Good luck.

-uhoh



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Weizman
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #34982 - 05/31/02 05:14 PM

Mr. Terry,

I see that you are the resident dissident. There are some aspects of dissidency that I do appreciate, but others aspects that I find to be ignorant, misinformed, and irresponsible.

As a dissident, you must be familiar with Dr. Peter Duesburg, who proposed that HIV is a harmless retrovirus which is only capable of causing a brief flu-like illness. This brief illness of which he writes is ARS. Unfortunately, he was mistaken in saying that this was all that HIV is capable of, because the data clearly shows that long term infection with HIV correlates highly with opportunistic infections that are indicative of a compromised immune system. Perhaps at the time he wrote his theories, he did not have as much data as we now have.

When you say that ARS is a phony theory to get people to test, where did you come up with this information? Is this your own theory? Please feel free to explain your theory in greater detail, as I find it interesting. Do you also believe that other acute virus illnesses such as chicken pox are part of a medical conspiracy, or is it limited to HIV ARS?

Not all recently infected HIV+ people even experience ARS, so it is of no use in persuading people to be tested for HIV. People should test based on their risk of exposure, not whether or not they experience ARS.

But try to tell someone who did experience a severe bout of ARS that it was not real. They will think you're insane because it is not only real, but can be severe enough to land a person in the hospital. Once it resolves itself (usually within a couple of weeks), they usually go back to feeling normal again for many years before HIV starts to cause other problems. That is why the people here who have ongoing symptoms are confused in thinking that it is related to HIV. ARS does not present as ongoing symptoms that last for many months.



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Weizman
Unregistered

Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34986 - 05/31/02 05:24 PM

Yes, at least 50% and as high as 90% of recently infected HIV+ people experience ARS symptoms, but they are not ongoing symptoms that last many months. The ARS symptoms resolve themselves within a couple weeks. That means the symptoms usually just go away on their own. Many HIV+ people live normal, healthy lives for many years without even knowing they have HIV.

All I am saying is that people who suspect a recent HIV infection, who then have negative test results outside the window period, should not be attributing their ongoing symptoms to HIV or some other HIV-like virus. It simply does not match HIV and makes no sense to continue that line of thinking.



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Weizman
Unregistered

Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34987 - 05/31/02 05:50 PM

As I said, I know your symptoms are real. Yes, there are many other viruses out there, and it is possible that one will be discovered in the future that cause immunodeficiency even faster than HIV does. But there is no evidence of it in the United States yet (except the words of the people on this message board). I have read some of your posts, and I can understand your concerns. However, it seems that the doctors you have seen see no reason to believe that you have anything as serious as advanced immunodeficiency (please correct me if I have missed a message that states otherwise). Believe me if you had progressed to AIDS-like immunosuppression your doctor would have known. The opportunistic infections seen in immune suppressed individuals are not difficult to find, they are usually very serious. PCP would be a likely indication. You don't seem to have anything like that, and you have continued to receive negative HIV test results.

Some rare cases of HIV progress rapidly from ARS directly into the kind of immune suppression that would usually not be expected until years later. This could be in part due to the particular genetic strain of virus, as well as the person's individual immune response, or lack thereof. However, these people have very serious opportunistic infections, and have positive HIV test results.

Perhaps you are concerned that you are heading toward immune suppression for some reason other than HIV, and your doctors are not heeding the early warning signs. You could try to persuade your doctor to do CD4/CD8 tests, but I would think that she would say that it is not necessary. The immune system is a very complex thing that involves every organ of the human body. The simple CD4/CD8 tests used to monitor the immune systems of HIV+ people are just a small window into what is going on in their immune systems.

The best approach for you might be to try to strengthen your immune system, and treat whatever serious ongoing symptoms you are experiencing. Best of luck to you.



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Weizman
Unregistered

Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34988 - 05/31/02 06:18 PM

All I'm saying is that ongoing, lingering symptoms by definition do not match the brief, self-limiting symptoms associated with ARS. Throw in the negative HIV test results, and it becomes clear that you need to look elsewhere.

So if it is some "other" virus, whatever it is, it does not present itself the way HIV and other viruses do. So why even conclude it is a virus at all? I'm not saying it is stress. Like yourself, I don't know what it is. I also don't know why everyone seems to have similar symptoms. The numbness in your hands is probably because everyone spends way too many hours scrolling their mouse through medical webpages. If your doctor sees no cause for alarm, then how serious can it be? When the first AIDS patients showed up at the hospital, the doctors immediately became concerned over the obvious failure of their immune systems. I think you can believe your tests, and to take it a step further, I don't think you have to worry about it being an undetectable strain of a virus that is even more aggresive than HIV. I hope this is of some comfort, I am just trying to help.



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uhohblita
Guru

Reged: 05/02/02
Posts: 273
Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34997 - 05/31/02 08:05 PM

Thanks for the response Weizman. I appreciate the fact you are genuinely trying to help me and it does help me to think rational.
I didnt wonder until I had the colonoscopy which virtually killed me. It was at that point the docs DID agree immunodeficiency could have done that to me. That was the beginning of the downward spiral and here I am now.
It does make me wonder that had I not had the colonoscopy, I would have progressed as the usual HIV person does, with the thrush, fevers, night sweats happening YEARS down the road. But its almost as if by terrible circumstance I accelerated that process.

-uhoh



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uhohblita
Guru

Reged: 05/02/02
Posts: 273
Re: HIV and ongoing symptoms new
      #34998 - 05/31/02 08:09 PM

We are merely concluding its STD related, be it virus or other.

I hear that a lot, "if the doctors dont see anything its not major". But to me it is major, when the quality of my life goes down the crapper and Im afraid to have a relationship because I could give this thing to someone else.

-uhoh



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TerryD
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #35008 - 05/31/02 09:44 PM

Dear Mr or Mrs. Weizman,

I can appreate that you seem to have read about what Duesberg has said most on here either can't read or choose to believe only one side. Duesberg said that the only possible effect that hiv could have is a "flu-like" reaction. However since that time the idea that hiv even exsists has been challenged and of course no evidence has been provided to proove that hiv is infact real. So you can't very well move on and talk about "hiv infection" if you have not even passed first base. Every theory including ARS is based on the idea that hiv destroys the immune system which is not true or proven. This is not a conspiracy just the result of corruption and greed which is the real epidemic on this planet. This is not to say that conspiracies are not real but this is not one of them.




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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #35010 - 05/31/02 09:45 PM

Manturd stop it your making TerryD look very intelligent with your ignorant comments!



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Weizman
Unregistered

Re: ARS is BS... new
      #35016 - 05/31/02 10:17 PM

Thank you, Terry, for the welcome reply.

With all due respect, ARS has nothing to do with whether or not HIV is capable of destroying the immune system. In fact, much the opposite, it is the immune system's response that goes into action during ARS. The antibodies that form during this time are the immune system's defense against HIV, and it is quite successful at first. The virus is reduced to a minimum, and the infected person goes back to feeling well again for many years to come.

This is not unique to HIV, it happens with many other viruses also. When the body detects the foreign intruder, it set out to attack it and tries to irradicate it from the system. The person feels ill, like the flu, but then gets better. The antibodies then remain present to help protect against any re-infections of the same virus. This is why you can only get chicken pox once, because after that you have antibodies that are specific to that virus. (Side note: in immunocompromised people, this immunity can wear off, and the virus can re-emerge as shingles.)

However, you do have a point that it is not well understood exactly how HIV wears down the immune system. No single mechanism has been identified to demonstrate how it does this. However, there is sufficient correlation between the long term presence of HIV antibodies and immune dysfunction to conclude that it does have this effect somehow.

Anyway, although Dr. Duesburg continues to theorize that HIV is harmless, and does not cause AIDS, he does offer proof that it is a real, isolated, infectious retrovirus. He submitted a paper basing these claims on the genetic DNA of both HIV-1 and HIV-2.

It is interesting to note that he was shunned by the mainstream community for his theories on AIDS, and now even the dissidents take issue with him because they wish to believe that HIV does not exist and he claims that it does. He is not fully accepted in either camp. I respect him highly for speaking his mind despite serious repercussions, although I do not agree with him on many issues. Here is a link to his claim that HIV exists and has been isolated, although as you would expect from a microbiologist/retrovirologist, it is in rather technical scientific jargon. Enjoy!

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pdreplyep.htm



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