|
absger
|
|
Newbie
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/13/13
|
|
Posts: 8
|
|
|
|
Some specific questions I didn't came across, ever / and something interesting
#270161 - 01/14/13 09:35 AM
|
Reply
|
Quote
|
|
|
First question:
The CDC says that HIV can be transmitted trough "small cuts or open sours".
I am sure that there are a lot of people out there that shave their "triangle" last-minute, e.g. minutes before the sexual act. Everybody knows that body hair, especially in that region is very strong, yet the skin is very soft and easy to be "damaged".
Basic question is, isn't shaving on/around the genitals before having intercourse endangering people, even if they use a condom? During intercourse the penis-shaft and vaginal fluids touch repeatedly. Since we all know, no blod (after shaving) doesn't mean they're not miniature wounds/cracks in the skin.
I never saw an answer to this question, actually never saw even the question before - but it sounds logical to me, or am I wrong? Is there any study on this?
Second question:
Why is it a "common answer" on all forums that an act is considered a non-risk-scenario, when the penis-head touches the vagina, but doesn't penetrate? Even if he is not penetrating, since the urethra is one of the "main entry point's"for HIV for a man, touching directly with vaginal fluids e.g. the vagina- isn't that the same like being "inside"? In both cases the head is "surrounded" by vaginal fluids or at least by an "un-hostile" environment.
Third question:
I learned in biology, a long time ago, that the human mouth is the most "hostile" area, e.g. has most kinds of different bacteria, followed by the vagina, followed at the last place by the rectum (yes, the "ass" is "cleaner" than your mouth). Does this in any part SUPPORT the basic understanding that unprotected anal sex is considered a bigger risk than vaginal sex? What I am trying to ask is, does HIV need a very "clean" environment in order to get into someones body? Is there ANY connection at all?
Fourth:
This has been asked many times, but answers vague, maybe someone can tell some numbers based on studies:
The main problem here in those forums is, that people assume the worst case scenario, e.g. they've had risky sex with a HIV positive individual.
Let's say X has sex with Y, which is positive. Let's say Y doesn't know about that, and his/her VL is high. How many times does X has to have unprotected sex with Y in order to get infected? I've heard 1/2000, 1/20.000 - so where is the real number? It's clear that it can happen the first time, it depends on many many factos but let's speak in odd's. What are studies saying?
I never came across these questions, personally i am interested in question one and two, because of my own fear, question 3,4,5 is just out of pure interest in the subject.
Something else I'd like to share: I've been trying to "survive" my own fear of HIV, based on "non-risk" events. We all make the big mistake, that we are almost sure that the person we've slept with has HIV. Well what if not? The odd's at least in most of the countries are 0,1% - 0,5% which means 1/2000 - 1/200. Then we have to add the odd's, that even IF we had unprotected sex with someone that has HIV, that doesn't mean we've got infected. So an optimistic picture would be 1/2000 out of 1/2000 - this is for the unprotected intercourse. If we had protected sex, and unprotected oral, the whole thing is becoming even bigger, 1/2000 out of 1/2000 out of 2/100 (that last one is very pessimistic). Can someone create a formula like this but based on real studies/numbers? I think i am not far off. Please correct me if i am wrong.
Edited by absger (01/14/13 09:50 AM)
Post Extras:
|
kicker
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 755
|
|
Loc: GA, USA
|
|
|
First question: recently shaved body hair with normal razor cuts (which means nicks that bleed a few drops aren't a risk because of clotting factor in the blood. Plus the fact that HIV is a weak virus and very quickly dies OUTSIDE the human body. You would both need a cut that require stitches and place the cuts up against each other to have a closed environment for transmission.
Second question: see the above answer. Needs an enclosed environment. Air destroys HIV. HIV is extremely sensitive to ph, temperature, and moisture levels.
Third question. The cell membranes in the oral cavity and vaginal cavity are thicker to protect against infection than they are in the anal cavity. The oral cavity having the thickest cell barrier that kills HIV before infection can take place. That is why it's considered a theoretical risk and have the odds of 1/10000 of infection per act with a varified HIV+ person with uncontrolled HIV. Vaginal cell membrane is less thick and has a risk of 5/10000 chance again with a verified HIV+ person with full intercourse including ejaculation. (Your urethra opens when you cum and that is how the urethra becomes infected. Until then it's closed unless you have a severe deformity). Anal cell membranes are the thinnest this provide the least protection. Allowing for a 50/10000 chance of being infected if you are the bottom with a verified HIV+ infected person who is not on meds as a top.
Final question which is going to vague to a degree. The odds I listed above are the odds you asked for with your final question. With all the variables that go into transmission from both parties, genetics, HIV level, act occurring, etc, etc the risk varies. The average are the odds above. You can have made passionate monkey sex with whips and chains 10,001 times and not be infected or you can have back seat of daddy's car fumbling first time sex and get infected on the first time.
Good luck surviving your own personal hell. Hopefully you're smart enough to realize only a positive HIV test is proof of infection not odds, acts, symptoms, or the Internet. So have an HIV test six weeks from your last "exposure" and believe it and move on. Until then don't bother with HIV or questions until you know for sure you have it. Then make it an issue. In other words. Quit having the horse push the cart rather than pull it.
Post Extras:
|
|
ashler1977
|
|
Guardian
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/18/12
|
|
Posts: 526
|
|
Loc: Europe
|
|
|
Quote:
Let's say X has sex with Y, which is positive. Let's say Y doesn't know about that, and his/her VL is high. How many times does X has to have unprotected sex with Y in order to get infected? I've heard 1/2000, 1/20.000 - so where is the real number? It's clear that it can happen the first time, it depends on many many factors but let's speak in odd's. What are studies saying?
no, no, no. HIV is a serious subject. there are not any studies supporting those numbers because for that, you would need to take HIV+ and HIV- people to have sex and see what happens (how many iterations you would need to have someone infected, etc.). Those numbers are just estimates based in epidemiological data. those numbers mean sh*t. if not, ask the thousands who got infected with a single unprotected intercourse.
with HIV (and any other virus) the thing is very simple: every time you have unprotected sex you're putting yourself at risk. you could be infected in the first contact, or maybe in the third, or maybe you're too lucky and you don't get infected. why play the odds? use a condom for oral, vaginal, and anal and you will be well protected. it's so simple.
-------------------- Oral sex and HIV transmission http://goo.gl/x2kV1
Post Extras:
|
|
absger
|
|
Newbie
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/13/13
|
|
Posts: 8
|
|
|
|
|
Kicker, thanks for your detailed answer regarding the first questions. I am currently on 7 weeks since my last unprotected oral exposure, but i want to wait at least 8 or 10, in order to be really sure and calm when i get a negative test result. I planned to use 5 different quick tests at the same time, just to be sure. So during this waiting window I get "crazy" as I stated in another thread.
Ashler1977, thank's for your answer too, I saw you answering many posts here. I agree that the safest way is to use condoms even for oral sex, or just life a monogamous life (what I really finally plan to do after I get my hopefully negative results). What is actually the ratio of "one-timers", e.g. people who become positive after one or several act's?
Something else I want to ask you both: Condoms, like any other product come in different qualities, no stock is "error-free". Can some cases be traced back to low-quality-condom usage? Ever, any case?
PS: I think this thread will be very interesting for a lot of people, so I hope that you keep posting.
Best Regards
Post Extras:
|
|
ashler1977
|
|
Guardian
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/18/12
|
|
Posts: 526
|
|
Loc: Europe
|
|
|
Quote:
Ashler1977, thank's for your answer too, I saw you answering many posts here. I agree that the safest way is to use condoms even for oral sex, or just life a monogamous life (what I really finally plan to do after I get my hopefully negative results). What is actually the ratio of "one-timers", e.g. people who become positive after one or several act's?
as I said before there are not such numbers. all numbers you will find in the web are just estimations based in epidemiological data.
Quote:
Something else I want to ask you both: Condoms, like any other product come in different qualities, no stock is "error-free". Can some cases be traced back to low-quality-condom usage? Ever, any case?
I have never read of such cases.
-------------------- Oral sex and HIV transmission http://goo.gl/x2kV1
Post Extras:
|
crabman
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/10/11
|
|
Posts: 611
|
|
|
|
|
You were given these figures before, but here is the CDC link. Scroll to the bottom. You want to look at Table 1 - Estimated per-act risk for acquistion of HIV, by exposure route*
These figures are based upon unprotected sex with someone that has HIV.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5402a1.htm
Post Extras:
|
|
absger
|
|
Newbie
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/13/13
|
|
Posts: 8
|
|
|
|
|
Thank you for pointing me there, from where I've found other studies. Actually, there are far to little studies on that subject as well as on the "oral risk" case.
Yet conclusions like this one, by David A. Hawkins makes me feel "uncomfortable".
Quote:
In conclusion, unprotected oral sex carries a risk for the transmission of HIV. Owing to the frequency with which it is practised and given the fact that those with the highest risk of acquiring HIV often have protected anal or vaginal sex, it is possible that it may lead to 6–8% of new HIV infections. Although using a condom will reduce the risk of transmission of HIV and other STIs, following penetrative oral sex, it has to be recognised that many will choose not to follow that advice. A wider discussion of risk assessment should take place so that individuals might make informed choices about their sexual behaviour.
http://sti.bmj.com/content/77/5/307.full.pdf+html
I understand that almost every question here on those forums is based on oral-sex "paranoia", yet I would question some people who are telling us (paranoid people) that this is a non-risk-event - It should rather be classified as a "low-risk-event" (and many here use that term). Yet there are other people who in addition tell you "no need to get tested" - I think getting tested after unprotected oral sex is someones personal choice, but "telling" someone that there's no need (no evidence, no risk, etc.) *could* lead to a misunderstanding.
This thread is getting many hits, I am still wondering about the "condom quality" case.
Another question to an answer I can't find is:
Quick-Tests search for anti-bodies generated by the body, yet sometimes we have a flu, have chronic diseases, pregnancy etc and the kit could give a wrong positive result (since partly the same antibodies are "generated" for other infections too). So far this is official information, in the how-to of those kits.
That made me wonder how the western blot and elisa test is working? And how exactly is being viral load being detected? I read about the copies of the virus, okay, but it consists of proteins - so a viral load test is basically "counting" a set of predefined proteins? How can anyone be sure that this is connected to HIV, when at the same time those proteins are being "generated" for other functions/illnesses in our body too? I know I sound like a skeptic, but my question is really out of interest since I've read a lot of (non-official) controversial material on that subject.
Personal agenda is that I am freaked out about having a flu the past 7 days, and I am wondering if that could in any way affect a test, whatever that test might be.
Post Extras:
|
|
ashler1977
|
|
Guardian
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/18/12
|
|
Posts: 526
|
|
Loc: Europe
|
|
|
Quote:
I understand that almost every question here on those forums is based on oral-sex "paranoia", yet I would question some people who are telling us (paranoid people) that this is a non-risk-event - It should rather be classified as a "low-risk-event" (and many here use that term). Yet there are other people who in addition tell you "no need to get tested" - I think getting tested after unprotected oral sex is someones personal choice, but "telling" someone that there's no need (no evidence, no risk, etc.) *could* lead to a misunderstanding.
oral sex is low risk, not zero risk, therefore testing for HIV (and other STIs) is adviced. I don't think you will read someone in this forum telling you that this is a 'no risk' situation.
-------------------- Oral sex and HIV transmission http://goo.gl/x2kV1
Post Extras:
|
kicker
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 755
|
|
Loc: GA, USA
|
|
|
You know it amazes me worried wells know that they are ruining their lives, they see it, they express it and find obscure references to support their paranoid beliefs as unequivocal proof they are right. Even though they admit they don't understand biology or virus vectors to a degree that would allow them to understand what "proof" they read. They NEVER quote up to date sources (2010 or newer) they always quote 2003 or older.
Congrats you are HIV positive you've proven it with outdated material that you don't understand and a test that has every reason to lie. You've out smarted drs and tests and even found flaws in everything we know about HIV. Why not put all that genius into finding a cure? You and Ashler can form a new website expressing the underrated and hush hush secrete conspiracy of oral sex. Perpetrated by the condom industry, CDC, who, HIV specialist, and us hivers. All because you both have proof through unconfirmed reports, negative text, and the Internet is a great source to get a doctorate in virology for someone that barely knows human physiology. Sounds reasonable to me. Good luck on your website and I look forward to seeing you win a noble for your rock solid work in finding proof by taking select sentences and unconfirmed reports from where else but the Internet. Awesome dude.
Find some other site to feed your obsession and conspiracy theories. We don't care for it nor entertain it.
Post Extras:
|
|
absger
|
|
Newbie
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/13/13
|
|
Posts: 8
|
|
|
|
|
1) I sourced the most recent study I could find 2) I am not here to *-off somebody, all I am searching for are answers to logical questions from my point of view, or from the point of view of someone in a similar position 3) If answers, even on thebody.com (one of the biggest websites on this subject) are controversial, what are we supposed to believe.
Don't blame me or anyone else for all the controversial or outdated information - on a subject where billions are being spend yearly. 3 Studies on oral-transmission risks which are being quoted over and over again. .. no comment.
Post Extras:
|
|
ashler1977
|
|
Guardian
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/18/12
|
|
Posts: 526
|
|
Loc: Europe
|
|
|
Quote:
Don't blame me or anyone else for all the controversial or outdated information - on a subject where billions are being spend yearly. 3 Studies on oral-transmission risks which are being quoted over and over again. .. no comment.
oral sex is and will be always a controversial subject. serious organizations (CDC, WHO, thebody.com, UNAIDS, etc.) quote anal, vaginal and ORAL as routes for HIV transmission. therefore, testing is advised (however, when you go to test keep in mind that the risk was very, very low)
-------------------- Oral sex and HIV transmission http://goo.gl/x2kV1
Post Extras:
|
crabman
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/10/11
|
|
Posts: 611
|
|
|
|
|
Yea like close to zip for risk which is lower than very very low.
1 in 10,000 chance when giving a blow job, which by the way there is only a five (2010) of confirmed cases in the 30+ years HIV has been around.
1 in 20,000 when getting a blow job, which has NO confirmed cases every in the 30+ years HIV has been around.
With the lack of overwhelming confirmed cases of transmission from HIV with the millions that have now been infected it's really an infinitesimal risk. Certainly not one to cause the level of panic seen in so many on this board.
Post Extras:
|
crabman
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/10/11
|
|
Posts: 611
|
|
|
|
|
Finally found this study. If people living with HIV positive partners aren't getting infected from oral sex, I just don't see why anyone would bother to worry about it in the first place. Why we say it's no risk.
"One method to determine the risk of orally transmitting HIV is by studying serodiscordant couples who practice unprotected oral sex and are exposed to no other risks for infection. Thus, a 10-year (1989–2000) follow-up study was performed on 263 stable serodiscordant heterosexual couples whose only risk exposure was oral–genital contact without the use of a condom, with condoms being used for other sexual practices. Despite 10,295 active and 10,658 passive oral–genital contacts, no cases of seroconversion to HIV were found (del Romero J et al., AIDS. 2002). "
http://www.metapathogen.com/HIV-1/HIV-1-transmission.html
Post Extras:
|
kicker
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 755
|
|
Loc: GA, USA
|
|
|
Careful crabman you'll be accused of being a big ole meanie who doesn't want to discuss the increditable risks of oral HIV. We shouldn't doubt those who have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with HIV let alone biology or even the ability to search a forum board to see that all these questions have been asked a thousand different ways and all have been answered the same way. But there is conflicting info.
We are stupid crabman, we don't understand their pain or the trauma we caused them by not giving them only the information that confirms their superior knowledge of the subject. Who the hell are we? Good the audacity we have.
Post Extras:
|
riverprincess
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 12/25/11
|
|
Posts: 1082
|
|
Loc: Jersey Shore
|
|
|
Oh my gosh , all this posting has given me a headache. Could it be that all this info infected me , again? Ya got an asprin Kicker?
Post Extras:
|
|
0 registered and 50 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: TheBody, bogart, crabman, riverprincess, kicker
|
Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 3076
|
|
|
|
|
|

UBB.threads™ 6.2.3
| |