|Chiropractic can help improve immune system (CHIROPRACTIC CARE AND HIV, 2010)
Jan 6, 2010
I'm sorry to see you blinded by science Dr.Bob My meds were not working and as soon as I went to chiropractic treatment my CD-4 improved from 250 to 350 in 1 month-placebo effect I think NOT.Maybe you are not looking at the right science results on how nutrition and spinal allignment CAN improve immune function?Chiropractic is of course no cure but neither is just poping pills and not treating the whole patient.Just because you have been educated in mainstream medicine it does not give you expertise in other alternative medical practices.That is accademic arrogance on your part.I would hope you can re-educate yourself on possible benefits of chiropractic.I'm still here because I see the science in both.
| Response from Dr. Frascino
"Blinded by science"??? That comment speaks volumes! Please note, scientific fact is enlightening, not sight limiting. Your anecdotal personal story does not change scientific reality. Cd4 counts can bounce around for any of a number of reasons. That your count bounced up one month after spinal "alignment" is merely an association, not a cause-and-effect phenomenon. The same experience is not consistently repeatable as it would be if indeed poking and prodding the spine actually affected circulating CD4 cells. The mere concept doesn't pass the smell test. Common sense should be enough for most rational folks to realize that chiropractic claims of improving immune function are pure poppycock and balderdash.
Academic arrogance? No, just common sense and reproducible scientific fact. You are certainly welcome to continue to "believe" whatever you wish. However, doing so won't change the reality of the situation or turn wild myth and pseudoscience into truth and fact.
HIV and Chiropractic (CHIROPRACTIC CARE AND HIV, 2009) Dec 27, 2009
For the question on can Chiropractic help patients with HIV, I beg to differ. While in school at Life University of Chiropractic research was done that I had patients under, And blood work did before and after care showed a increase in their CD4 cell count, So I was part of this with real live patients and real blood work showing the facts that chiropractic did help with their immune response. There is research out there that shows the immune system is in part controlled by your nervous system which is not done by Chiropractors so this can't be biased. If you would like to see more info on this contact Dr. Matt Mcoy D.C of Life University and he can show you the numbers, I hope this info can help you understand this in a non bias way.
Response from Dr. Frascino
You can "beg to differ" with me all you like, but it will not change the facts that chiropractic has no effect on CD4 cell counts (or any other aspect of immune function) and is not a recommended treatment for HIV. As a board-certified clinical immunologist and certified member of the American Academy of HIV Medicine with well over a quarter of a century of experience in clinical HIV/AIDS research and direct patient care, I believe I (and other similarly well-trained HIV/AIDS physician specialists and clinical immunologists) am eminently qualified to critically assess whether or not a therapeutic intervention has a significant effect on the body's immune system. Having reviewed the chiropractic literature, I can assure you my assessment that chiropractic intervention has no effect on HIV disease remains completely unchanged. See below for a more detailed response and a dose of common sense.
Chiropractic Care Helping HIV+ Patients (CHIROPRACTIC CARE) Feb 13, 2008
Why do i see patients who report back to me that the reason they stay well against HIV is attributed to their choice of a holistic chiropractic lifestyle?
Why are their reports across the world that chiropractic adjustments may help improve body function, including the immune system?
Would you like some references to investigate?
Response from Dr. Frascino
I've seen and evaluated the "reports". When viewed scientifically they completely support my statement that chiropractic care does not affect immune function and has no place in the treatment of immunodeficiency.
Why do you see patients who report back to you that the reason they stay well against HIV is attributed to their choice of holistic chiropractic? Good question! Certainly personal observation that "patients that report back that they are staying well" has no scientific or statistical significance. The placebo effect works in 10% of the population. That probably accounts for most of what you are seeing. Certainly science, medicine, immunology and common sense could not account for this.
Re: Does Chiropractic Care Strengthen Immunity? Dec 23, 2007
No need to sling any mud, I'm just trying to suggest alternative treatments to a problem who's current treatments have so many side effects. There seem to be enough people on this forum and others experiencing this same phenomenon with chiropractic care. Add that to the study done in 1994 and it sounds like it may be something to look further into. Being a Board Certified Immunologist, and as someone who is infected themselves, it seems like you should be really interested in finding treatment that is safe, effective, and has as little side-effects as possible. Do the research yourself. Go see a chiropractor. Then you can sling all the mud you want that it doesn't work and it's all pseudoscience.
Response from Dr. Frascino
I'm not slinging mud; I'm slinging common sense. I can assure you I am very interested in finding HIV treatment that is safe and effective and that has as few side effects as possible. I've dedicated the past 26 years of my life to that quest. However, as a Board Certified Immunologist, I can assure you the theory upon which chiropractic care is based is nonsense and has absolutely no place in the treatment of immune-based diseases. As a scientist, physician and person with at least a modicum of common sense, the notion that disease is produced by a disruption in the normal flow of a natural life force termed "Innate Intelligence" cannot be considered seriously any more than can the belief in vampires or compassionate conservatives. The concept that "Innate Intelligence" flows through the nervous system and is disrupted by displacements of the spinal vertebrae called subluxations, which can be corrected by chiropractic manipulation, sounds like a rejected script from an old Star Trek episode. As Dr. Spock would say, "It's just not logical!" I would have to question the innate intelligence of anyone who buys this "Innate Intelligence" interrupted-flow theory. I think referring to it as junk pseudoscience is actually a compliment considering how bizarre these claims are! So, no, I don't need to go to a chiropractor for treatment of a viral pathogen causing immunodeficiency anymore than you would need to go to a used care salesman to have your appendix removed. Chiropractic care does not strengthen immunity. Period. This line of discussion is now closed.
Does Chiropractic Care Strengthen Immunity? Dec 10, 2007
Does chiropractic strengthen immunity?
Partial list of relevant citations
Response from Dr. Frascino
The "partial list of relevant citations" you copied from a chiropractic Web site is anything but "relevant" and in my humble opinion as a Board Certified Immunologist is nothing more an exercise in junk pseudoscience. Now exactly which part of my previous statement "I've said it before and I'll say it again, chiropractic care is not a treatment for HIV/AIDS or any other immune system-related illness. It does not affect CD4 counts or HIV plasma viral load. Anyone who claims otherwise is just pulling your leg or snapping your neck or whatever" are you having difficultly understanding?
If you don't believe me, perhaps you'll believe Jerome F. McAndrews, a chiropractor and national spokesperson for the American Chiropractic Association in Arlington, VA: ". . . there is no real evidence that the immune system is strengthened as a result of chiropractic care."
If folks even realized the bizarre, far-fetched theory behind "chiropractic," I doubt they would subject themselves to "treatment." Briefly, chiropractic is a system of treatment based on the theory that disease is produced by disruptions in the normal flow of a natural life force termed "Innate Intelligence." This life force flows through the nervous system and is disrupted by displacements of the spinal vertebrae called "subluxations." Chiropractic manipulation is intended to correct the subluxations, allowing the uninterrupted flow of Innate Intelligence to return the body to full health! Really, I'm not making this shit up! Personally it would seem to me that anyone with even a modicum of Innate Intelligence would have to seriously question the science and perceived wisdom behind such an illogical premise. My advice is "buyer beware!"
Chiropractic Care and CD4 Cell Count Dec 4, 2007 I have found a couple of answers to questions here about chiropractic care and CD4 cell count. The answer usually is that there is no evidence that chiropractic care has an effect of the CD4 count. This is not true. There is a study that has been out for more than 10 years about how chiropractic care can increase the CD4 cell count by 48%. Here is a link to the article: http://w3.palmer.edu/owens/EOWENS/crj_html/31hiv.html Enjoy!
Response from Dr. Frascino
Hi, Yes, and there are studies out there that claim Dubya is a brilliant president and we all know how accurate that piece of information is, right?!? Don't believe everything you read. I've said it before and I'll say it again, chiropractic care is not a treatment for HIV/AIDS or any other immune system-related illness. It does not affect CD4 counts or HIV plasma viral load. Anyone who claims otherwise is just pulling your leg or snapping your neck or whatever. Don't be duped by hype.
Ethical Question Mar 18, 2008
Don't roll your eyes, I'm a chiropractic student and not all of us focus on the "innate." But I don't have a question of transmission, but more so of ethics. I just began rotations at this clinic and had the oppurtunity to treat this really nice patient (who was not osseously adjusted). I finished working on him and was cleaning the table, and my supervisor tells me to scrub it really well. I laughed, because he drooled on the paper on the headpiece - that means you did a good job on the soft tissue. She then informed me that he was HIV+ and that I really needed to "scrub it down." Now we learned about the spread of HIV in school, and it was my understanding that HIV is a delicate virus and cannot live for very long outside of the body. And we learned about "universal precautions." Apart from being a little sad about this man's diagnosis, I feel offended by her. What makes this patient so different? Or am I wrong? I understand procedure, but it seems weird to me for her to tell me to "really clean up" with one person rather than another because you just don't know who has disclosed their status. And I feel a little sick that this attitude exists in the healthcare field. I feel like I should say something, but I don't know what or how? But please, if I'm wrong, correct me. Thank you.
Response from Dr. Frascino
You are absolutely correct in your assessment and your indignation is completely justified. BRAVO! I strongly encourage you to say something to your clueless supervisor. Perhaps put it in the form of a series of questions. For example:
"Ms. Clueless Scumbag, can I ask you a question? Why did you want me to specially scrub down the whatchamacallit thingy just because the patient was HIV positive? Aren't our "universal precautions" adequate to prevent transmission of bloodborne pathogens like HIV and hepatitis? Or do we have extra-special universal precautions for HIVers? And, Ms. Scumbag, by the way I read that 25% of the over-1,000,000 HIV-positive Americans have absolutely no idea they are infected with the virus. So do you think we should surreptitiously test them all before cracking their backs so we'll know when the equipment needs one of those special scrub downs?"
That should do the trick. You seem like a bright, compassionate, insightful fellow. Are you sure you want to become a chiropractor? I don't think you're going to fit in with the rest of the group, especially if you have an appreciation of ethics!
Finally drooling doesn't necessarily mean you've done such a good job on the soft tissues. Manipulating and pushing on salivary glands will cause this to happen. In addition, like Pavlov's dogs, people can be programmed and conditioned to drool on exposure to a stimulus. I once had two Old English Sheepdogs named Dudley and Dexter who would impressively drool whenever I grilled steaks on the barbeque.
Good luck with Supervisor Scumbag. Stand back when you question her. She just may drool on you as she foams at the mouth in indignation.
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